i mean no disrespect to pajwoj or downpour or anyone else whos been bringing this up, but its really easy to say abolish subjectivity when u havent engaged in the bn modding process. subjectivity isnt an ideology, it is a function of being human and of this game being a creative medium. the "subjectivity" that comes up 95% of the time in the bn modding process isnt some grandiose debate about what a map is supposed to be, its boring shit

i mean if u wanna talk ranking criteria the examples of this are literally every guideline. theres hundreds of them and theyre all situational, so you cant just convert them to rules. is the alternative converting them to flowcharts of situations? what happens when the Osu Modding Robot flags the "avoid streams made of more than 5 notes" guideline on a hard diff, but doesnt know what bpm would make it okay for 7 notes vs. 8 notes vs. 9 notes? are you ready to draw those lines for everything we can think of?

dont get me wrong, completely agree that the bn application has been an overwhelming roadblock for a while and the success rate is just too low. but what are we really expecting when theres no officially supported public resources for learning modding?

Completely fair take but my point is to somehow make access easier because the process to achieve bn includes modding to an Unrealistic extent (Someone earlier said the same thing but better basically you don't put as much effort for a random map after u become bn as for the eval)

My view is more like an ideal scenario which admittedly I'm not too qualified to speak on (Idk the ins and outs of modding, if I did I would be bn!!) but if it was somehow possible then it would be my favoured one. See how there aren't really too many actual "problem" mods overall? Also having used MV for most sets that I participate in I think it's pretty good at pointing out the more common things, once again as I said idk the more complicated scenarios that make maps unrankable but I'm pretty sure that most are stuff like missnaps or other Clear and obvious errors which can be implemented in the Osu Modding Robot without much trouble (if they aren't yet implemented, and even then I'm pretty sure it's modular so With some AI help you could cover the majority of the rc very quickly and Most likely accurately)

I can't really speak on your example because I'm not rly too familiar with mapping hard diffs but that sounds like something that could be fixed with some sort of review / rewrite of the rc And that may include removing the more Problematic guidelines like the one you mentioned. To be honest I don't think I've seen too many hards with 5+ note bursts and all the ones I can vaguely recall are from like 2014 which was a much stricter time for mapping overall so I guess we've gone soft! Make hards hard again (Probably not possible as putting 1/4 makes the sr skyrocket and then it's not a hard anymore by sr.)

Ofc it's not a thing anyone could do overnight, but either way my main point is about making bn as a whole more accessible and I guess that I automatically associate it with making modding full robotic as that would reduce potential Failure rate

MV has definitely seen a lot of improvement over the years and I agree there are ways it could potentially be smarter. I think what you are envisioning is sort of a "meet in the middle" of both tools getting better and requirements getting more lenient. a LOT of this stuff ultimately serves to try to be welcoming to new players (spread balancing, handholding on lowdiffs, etc) and I won't disagree that we could use a reevaluation of how much of that is working vs. how many new players are sticking with the game based on raw persistence alone. whatever it looks like though its just a lot of fkn work

Yep 100% But I think that this community has the potential to do it there are some passionate freaks out here

loctav a bitch as per usual nothing new

the proposal itself is eh idk

i will say though that i've heard the phrase "this is cool but i'd be scared to take this" an enormous amount of times

I lowkey like what pajwoj "proposed" here, but I do think it would be better to simply make it 2 categories of senior BNs and junior BNs, since most BNs have at least shown the ability to mod to a higher degree than just looking if a map follows the RC. That should come with more responsibility and a bigger role. What would mean exactly, I'm not so sure either. Maybe you need a senior BN to be one of the BNs on the set or something.
I'm also wondering if the junior BNs could potentially abuse their role, like let's say they are supposed to do the RC check only, but now make subjective mods on top of that like a normal modder, will the mapper know? Maybe, but I feel like maybe they should have to tell that it's subjective as a disclaimer (like some people, including BNs already do)? Dunno just some late night thoughts lol

you basically quite literally described what probationary bns were lol

also yes most bns including me will say if something is nitpicky, not a big deal, up to the mapper, or whatever it may be. it’s just good practice overall and something i tell people when they want to learn to mod

i quite literally think there just needs to be more accessibility for learning how to mod properly. i kind of never got why we got rid of probationary bns to begin with, especially since that would allow you to lower the threshold for accepting bns too

@Camo Aren't probationary BNs still a thing, when you enter the BNG for the first time? Or are you talking about trial BNs?

they are still a thing yeah

lmao Loctav rising from his grave at night to be a massive asshole. man has changed about as much as he sees sunlight

Bng is just a fundamentally broken system because nowadays. In order to get there you must spend significantly more hours studying and doing shit like playing mapping modding studying rc etc than to get into most actual real life professions while the benefits are just... non-existent? Except for ego boost maybe cuz any map you are ranking could've been ranked by someone else and all of this feels just like a waste of time for this exact reason.
And there is nothing that can be done to this because it will never be a paid position so noone ever will take all this seriously enough and professionally, while the responsibility is also almost non-existent, which, during the long years of this game being a thing has spiraled down into only god knows what cuz this arrangement definitely does everything it can so people wouldn't feel pride in what they do
Also afaik all significant decisions regarding bng nat are not data-driven and are just made on a whim, so this feels like eternal fucking around without any actual clue on what should be done and what are the goals we are trying to achieve

i think its weird theres such a high barrier to entry and its supposedly so difficult just for like 90% of bns i see just to use ClaudesetVerifier and leave it at that

u do that u get kicked either from timing issues, metadata issues or spread issues

mv is only good for catching unsnaps or fringe unrankables/checking for map files

also the barrier to entry is not that high, if you can't get into the bng you simply arent submitting bn apps with the things NAT are looking for. not because they are expecting you to be excellent or even want you to be

its more of a time hassle than anything to get into this role and then stay in it, mentally draining but not technically challenging