When mapping, I often have to resort to trial and error with almost every pattern I place because I somehow intuitively know when something "plays bad" (doesn't play how I thought it would play) but I never know exactly why it plays bad.

When I play maps I like I can clearly feel a sense of polished/satisfying gameplay but I never get exactly why I like a map or mapper or style either, just that it "plays good"

I've even tried to deconstruct certain maps only to still run into the same problem. I was always told that gameplay was subjective when mapping but I can't help but feel that there's some objective component to it that I miss. Of course there are ways to mask this sort of failure via density/rhythm/stops/momentum or whatever and muscle memory can somewhat help figure out what "plays good" but it doesn't satisfy me for whatever reason.

Of course treating gameplay strictly as a set of rules makes for an unfun map which is why I've always skirted around this topic in my head instead of academically analyzing why say The Pretender by RLC plays so distinctly snappy/rigid or why Dango Dango by Moo-Chan has patterns that look haphazardly placed but are still some of the most satisfying in the game to play regardless (imo :p)

How do you make yourself conscious of what "plays good" while mapping instead of play testing 30 times is what I'm really asking I guess

And I know everyone has a different idea of what plays good so it's nice to share that as well

Holy shit I sound really ________ and ___ and like a midwit but this question just drives me up a wall every time I open the editor

This is also a sign I am neurotically obsessed with this game for some reason

Its subconscious for the most part after having played the game a lot and also after mapping quite a bit I think everyone develops like schemes for certain things so that it's kind of automatic

There are like rules or certain things that I try to avoid because I hate how they play - This part is kind of subjective as you said but I agree that there are like objectively bad things you can do with gameplay

An example here in this set /s/908927 - In the very beginning of the top diff this exists 00:06:298 (8,9) - and it's like Extremely random to have a 1/4 snap like this without a very clear tell in the music (Tbf here I think that there isn't even a tell as both notes map the same piano sequence so it's even worse) + if it was some sharp angle it would be better but it's pretty much a straight line which is usually the hardest to play for most ppl

So yeah I wonder if anyone disagrees with this but if you try this map this is like the most annoying / rng part and it's not in the hard part and it doesn't really correspond to music and I think that warrants being called objectively bad gameplay

As for liking or disliking someone's style and why I always said that I think everyone has a unique view on the game so in the end you can like or dislike anything, it's different for everyone and that is what makes mapping so cool imo

So tldr just play more and after playing things u like maybe try to map and it will come

I agree with your second-to-last text block pajwoj, but I was thinking more of like on a microlevel like when a pattern feels "complete" or not or when there's like a sort of tension and release when playing (if that makes any sense) that doesn't even just apply to the obvious scenarios like I f2ed to random laurier map on a completely random pattern /s/144899 00:42:711 (4,5,1) - where the slider "completes" the gameplay despite going against the conventional le circular flow emphasis that I've burned into my psyche subconsciously for 5 years

I sort of wrote this post in a weird stream of consciousness way for Reasons you may be able to guess so it sounds deranged (not to overly self-deprecate to feign modesty either)

Also you reminded me that I'm almost about to decay to 6 digit

I mean I'm not rly good at analyzing maps I do most things based on instinct and things I deem cool are very surface level and simple so I might be wrong here but in the example u linked he literally just switches the direction because the song goes into a new section and u can spin circles either way like the slider doesn't go against the flow at all

I might be misunderstanding "circluar flow emphasis" but there are so many fking random buzzwords in the community that they all like lose their meaning lol

i do this but i dont play test 30 times i just look at it in the editor and flail my cursor around. i think its the same idea.

@Pajwoj Fair, I barely analyze maps myself lol it's just something I super subjectively notice
@Funny I also do that, but I sometimes find there's a difference for some inexplicable reason

Anyways, I think I'm just afraid of placing too many "bad" patterns in a row because the maps I like seem to have some consistency in how they handle gameplay throughout the map. I just rage quit when I place too many dull/numbing objects in a row even though I mentally excuse these same moments in the maps I like, I guess the solution would be to not be afraid of placing patterns that just don't work: after all I can always see where I went wrong if I really wanted later. Ty both btw

that is true when i was learning i was also very strict. i would look at maps i liked and look at patterns and think "i would never allow myself to do something like this even though theres nothing wrong with it" and then i would try to identify those self-imposed restrictions i had and try to break them on purpose

i think you came close to what really matters to you here when you brought up tension. the cursor speed that a movement requires, and the management of acceleration and deceleration over a whole pattern, is what really makes a player feel tension and release. i rarely see people talk about it in this way as opposed to always separating spacing and angles into 2 different ideas

> i do this but i dont play test 30 times i just look at it in the editor and flail my cursor around. i think its the same idea.

tfw u watch a twitter map preview where the mapper does this and doesnt hit a single fucking thing and then u go play the map and it plays like shit from a dogs ass

@Funny Will try that out when I get the chance
@Kataryn I think I just picked it up from lurking somewhere and internalized it to the point where it's what I think about when mapping lol. I think that's what makes a map fun imo like you said
@Semaphore Yea that's probably why I'm so neurotic about this, the last thing I would want would be to unknowingly make an unfun map :-(

Omg the preview thing is such a peeve of mine hahahaha i cant stand it.

Also following the map with ur cursor is really no different than just using ur eyes and brain the tapping and feedback from tapping is just as important (also the fact that u have to be stricter with ur aim also also why u cant testplay with relax)