Avenged Sevenfold - Save Me by Sayuka

whats with making a hard map and then not doing anything actually hard lol

it’s basically if clout chasing was a map or at least that’s how it comes off as but then again that isn’t new

says the guy who mapped apparition

||
V

how does this come off as clout chasing

keep hating

idk about "clout chasing". It just happens to be a good song that it popular. It'd be clout chasing if they mapped it right after mrekk got the pp record or smth, but I don't think that's the case... *shrug*

i mean sure the game doesn't NEED a third map of this song but it's an entirely plausible thing to just make for fun, it doesn't have to be more complicated than that

also i think the "no one downloads maps anymore!!!" talking point kinda applies here, people keep mapping the same "classic" osu songs because that's one of few ways players will notice the map and go out of their way for it. to many people, popularizing a new one doesnt seem possible (although i'd love for that to be proven wrong)

and some people still manage to get 5k playcount on remaps of classic songs, wonder why......

no one downloads maps anymore

+1 kataryn

though there is an easy way to popularise songs, and that's simply by making a farm map of it. That's exactly what happened with Glory Days and many other power metal stream farm maps in general.

true, but that presents an alarmingly narrow view of the future, as i'm sure you're aware... high pp plays have always influenced osu music notoriety for sure but the difference now is that Maps For Top Players have been narrowed down into 2 hyperspecific archetypes

also i feel like innovation used to be cool? people stood out by creating things players couldnt quite do yet, and it feels like any instance of that now is met with either who gaf or hate train. the easiest example i can think of is exit this earth's atomosphere but this is where my turbozoomer status might kinda derail my point bc i don't know if that map was as well-received at the time

map feels like a stake ad

Eternal 2016

fuck yeah arthro

Actually coming back to what kataryn said, I think the feeling of "innovation used to be cool" exists because osu! content creators don't really cover map showcases anymore, even top players who have the ability to playtest and showcase groundbreaking maps. They only care about setting amazing scores, whether that's pp or something else.

You rarely see videos like BTMC showcasing Probox's ETEA map, or Mayday 2b nowadays and imo that kinda takes away from the incentive to create something original if you're seeking clout. The only time when that happens is when Aspire contests happen and ppl like Koifishu cover it.

hmmmmmmm an interesting point for sure (and one i personally will have to think on)

as a counterpoint, i think when maps have gained recognition / clout cus of content creators covering it, historically this hasn't really happened with innovative maps but rather flashy but non-innovative maps (e.g. Probox's ETEA map, or Mayday 2b)

these being things which 1) didn't really have any influence on the mapping zeitgeist, and 2) didn't really maintain popularity for very long either, felt more like a fad (maybe im wrong on this)

I think one factor for "innovative" maps no longer being influential is that innovation / unique ideas used to be rare, and when they did pop up (some) people took them seriously, whereas nowadays we are basically inundated with maps that are novel in various ways and spanning the full breadth of quality and thoughtfulness, so that the default reaction to an innovative map has shifted from taking it seriously as a potential source of impetus to assuming that it's likely to just be some random crap, or less cynically maybe it has some small idea that's worthwhile and maybe it'll implement that decently, but chances are low, and even if it did there's likely nothing there that means anything in the grand scheme of the community

dead beatmap theory

OK wow thgis map is worse than I thought

It actually is precisely because of farm maps that the general public no longer values mapping in a critical sense. A small circle of powerful mappers (u know who) use their power to promote easily consumable, low quality maps which specifically tailor to the average player. Because of this the average player will begin to devalue the experience of maps and over time they may subconsciously lose the ability to think of maps critically at all. For even newer players they might have never valued mapping through a critical lens at all.

I could explain further but this is something Theodore Adorno and Max Horkheimer discuss regarding art and mass media in their book Dialectic of Enlightenment so if you're interested go read that. It will change your life.

Btw this is disgusting

u could say its vile

and then i looked at his most played beatmaps

and not at his omdb ratings, for some weird reason

Vile remark

Big Farm is coming to steal your jobs folks

they don't want me to say it but you know that won't stop me

coca cola

If we're getting all philosophical here,

I have to disagree with most of aeong's points here honestly.
For one, the very notion of a map's value is entirely dependent on the individual's tastes and priorities, even in a "critical sense". As such, I find it very dismissive and frankly a little insulting to argue that some aren't viewing maps through a critical lens just because what they value doesn't align with what yours.

I'm not going to pretend that farm maps aren't popular for certain reasons, and pp is something that really shouldn't have any place in mapping discussions (when it comes to map quality I mean) just as much as monetary value is also moot when talking about art in general.
But there is also many arguments supporting the notion that "farm" maps are popular for reasons other than the pp they award (a great example being the playcount of Bang Bang during its qualification easily topping many maps that have been ranked for months, despite not awarding any pp by that point).

Finally, I honestly just don't buy into the idea that farm maps are making new players go astray from the righteous path of pogchamping everytime Fanzhen or Kalibe uploads a map.
You can absolutely play and enjoy farm maps while still gushing over more esoteric stuff (something that's evident by looking at your most played maps, or mine for that matter).
Even for those that don't, I'm more of the opinion that if stripped from these "farm" or "simple" maps, most of them would just not play the game. "Good" maps are pushed into the limelight from time to time, this is more than enough to signal that if someone seeks more from this game, it can offer it.

This isn't a jab at the sentiment, I also really wish that cooler stuff could consistently get more attention with the playerbase at large.
I just don't agree with putting the blame on farm maps.
(also really good book rec, even if I don't agree with that's said in it I also advise giving it a try).

"As such, I find it very dismissive and frankly a little insulting to argue that some aren't viewing maps through a critical lens just because what they value doesn't align with what yours."

That is not what I said.

But there is also many arguments supporting the notion that "farm" maps are popular for reasons other than the pp they award.

Yes, the point is that they're easily consumable not that they give lots of pp.

"this is more than enough to signal that if someone seeks more from this game, it can offer it."

Yes the point is that they may no longer be inclined to.

i do think it's worth looking into how players perceive the game and what their incentive to seek out maps is.

maybe beatmap genre tags might actually help with pushing slightly more niche skillsets to more audience, or it could completely backfire and only jump aim and streams gets downloaded ever lol

About "a great example being the playcount of Bang Bang during its qualification easily topping many maps that have been ranked for months, despite not awarding any pp by that point"; I can find at least 2 counterpoints to that:
-learn it to farm it faster(?) after it gets ranked
-play it literally just because it's popular (their friends play it so you do too),

however there are counterpoints:
-it's a song that I think most people would like (opposed to ayaya high pitch anime song nr. 3213)
-a lot of difficulties for every level player (plenty of high diffs to challenge yourself)

the only thing missing for the perfect "high playcount" formula is shorter length (3mins is on the longer side, but it might be less of a detriment than I think it is)

now I honestly don't know what matters more; the map ultimately being worth lots of pp , the map being a perfect comfort zone combo of "easy to consume" song + simple / generic / whatever style (ties in a bit with being worth lots of pp as "simple" maps are usually farmable in some way) or the map being popular which I think incentivises some to play it, I cba to research it, but you can find both types in most played (harumachi clover for short pp slop and big black for pure popularity)

about aeong's response to this point; I personally think the vast majority of maps in the game is "easy to consume", and "hard to consume" maps never have lots of plays because frankly I think they were not designed to really be played (I can elaborate on this if needed); when I think "hard to consume map" I think of Hailie because she was the loudest name back when I played the most, and even though I personally learned to enjoy her maps eventually it's obvious why they were unpopular and hated from a player's perspective, and yet there were lots of people who liked them regardless

as for "not valuing mapping in a critical sense" I think I agree with what Koish said entirely, even though I have friends who rarely ever play ANYTHING else in solo than the newest sotarks&co. slop they still have a taste and can justify it (why they like x map), even within the most "easily consumable" sets everyone I ever knew had a preference on who their "best farm" mapper was so I think that counts as "valuing mapping in a critical sense", I also think that they would completely quit bar maybe a multi session with others every once in a while if farm maps disappeared

in the end for both playing and mapping everyone has their own thoughts and saying that "the general public no longer values mapping in a critical sense" is just unfair, being around lots of player circles back in the day and now being into mapping and reading takes here I can confirm that for every mapper that thinks players are slop consuming zombies without an ability to think about what they play there is a player who thinks that sotarks is the antichrist and that player loves every map that's different (Hailie), doesn't matter if it's "good" or "bad"; he enjoys it

tl;dr everyone has their own opinions and based on that seeks enjoyment

osu

It would be cool to get a Save Me that was just like, completely different from the rest of them. This one feels like more of the same, which is good if you can farm it like me but is bad if you want a version of this song that doesn't feel like homework.