the latest iteration of the "mapper vs players" drama has me thinking back to 2016, before i had really started mapping and when i was still addicted to the game as a player. the abysmal quality of ranked maps at the time had me fleeing to the graveyard section, where all the interesting tech and reading maps were to be found, and which from then on was where i sank 95% of my playtime into. at the time, "tech" was where all the freedom of expression was. compared to the tsunami of sauceless jump-and-stream maps in the ranked section, graveyard tech maps offered a much richer playing experience and a diversity of music expression, which even back then as a player i had begun to take interest in.
at the time, akali was one of my favorite mappers. the pure volume of fidgety alt maps and "you are not hanzer" streams made him my preferred brand of slop, and whatever the quality of his of mapping, he was never in short supply of interesting ideas.
See It Coming is the one map of his i have since remained a wholehearted fan of, both as a player and as a mapper (it really should be played though.) instead of the sloppy maximalism of his later maps, we see a rather dated (in a charming way) adherence to consistent spacing and blanketing. the spacing and the rotational movement during the kiais are what constitute the map's greatest strength: its smoothness. it glides around with the music so wonderfully you'd think he mapped this with distance snap on—saving distance increases only for the most crucial moments: 02:32:971 (6,7,8) - 02:38:441 (5,6,7,8,9,10) - 02:44:088 (7,8,9,10,11,12) -
the aesthetics in this map, especially some of the blanketing in the earlier sections, are redolent of a still-budding mapper from 2014 (this was uploaded a year after his earliest map), but it's a charming style that manages to win you over.
00:46:912 (1,1) -
01:17:618 (3,1,1) - cool
01:20:088 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4) - nice sequence
fantastic map that, despite a relatively elaborate slider style, still finds room for the music, most notably through exceptionally satisfying rotational movement
great song, love what the map does with it. really makes you hear every note. it pays a lot of attention to melody, especially differentiating between high and low notes in different ways, which is an extra cool thing when the melody is so relentless
i play piano also, i didnt discover rubato in a wikipedia article yesterday. i do think you're too attached to the mention of rubato, i was using it to illustrate a similarity between the two: the push and pull of music to produce a certain feeling. it's a fairly new thing in mapping, the mapper himself knows it's experimental. anything truly new is not "generally done" anywhere, there's no point in citing tradition to discredit the new. if it doesnt work for you thats fine, but it's not categorically Wrong because clearly it works for myself and some others, for this song.
if the patterns dont work for you thats also fine, same with any other map. my point is just that the patterning here isnt some new sacrilegious shit, it's no more controversial than anything else thats been uploaded so far
some other points
when he offsets the snapping of an object, its usually to emphasize the melody--the voice, the synth, the strings--and not the percussion. don't singers often sing slightly offbeat to emphasize a certain note or feeling? why should frakturehawkens' hitobjects not be considered their own voice? he doesnt even do it that much, its not like every object is randomly offbeat
rubato is also not "incoherent" with the idea of a rhythm game imo. just tap the key to the sound. it's the same for any track not recorded to a metronome: bohemian rhapsody, recharging the void, whatever. i have also definitely chosen piano recordings to map based on what i can do with the rubato. i honestly think you may just be having the classic kneejerk "wtf something new??? ew" reaction that we've seen in mapping over and over again.
i dont think it actually is that deep at all. the most unfriendly technique here is probably the strange snapping. in music there's this concept of "rubato," which is where when you're playing a piece of music on an instrument you can push and pull the tempo in order to bring out one aspect of the music or another. imo theres something similar going on here: he places an object earlier or later than the sound it corresponds to, to try to produce a certain feeling. obviously it can be a little jarring to hear both the original timing and the "altered" timing together, and that's likely the main thing people find offputting
but other than that it's actually not that weird of a map? pretty much every object has a VERY clear musical purpose, and there are tons of highly structured patterns that clarify the mappers intentions. even when there are no patterns the purpose of an object is so clear it should almost be obvious. it's certainly an unusual map but i dont think it should be a confusing map, at all. even the section at 03:19:788 (1) - which is a little more freeform than the others (with very fun movement and rhythm usage), at least is divided into 2 via NCing to give the section a sense of progression. this is no more incoherent than literally any other map, ever
i do find that in the recent mapping community there is a severe deficiency regarding patterns, both in recognizing them and in using them. which means theres a deficiency regarding that aspect of music which patterns can best express (and which is imo the most important aspect in mapping, partially because it relates to many other aspects as well.) ironically, it's a type of musical understanding which the game of osu! itself specifically teaches you to unlearn, because when you play the game you usually focus on one or two objects at a time. which is why, as time has gone on, maps and mapping attitudes have become less and less pattern- (and less music-) based. it's something i also sort of unlearned for a bit, and had to eventually relearn
but that also doesnt HAVE to be whats happening here. maybe you just dont like this map or song in particular. i definitely dont love every pattern-based map i see. you can decide for yourself which one it is
genius level map. frakturehawkens shatters the song into pieces and recreates it in his own image--but deftly, with intentionality. the off-kilter snapping in particular helps paint a highly impressionistic vision of the music.. and a sharper image then emerges from the murk by way of broad-strokes ideas (03:38:926 (31,32,33,34,35,36,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1) - , 02:43:236 (1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1) - ) and numerous very clearheaded pattern construction. the heavy reliance on seemingly haphazardly-timed patterns brings to mind rrtyui's rainshower; despite the nonstandard techniques used here, pattern-usage helps to break the music (or the mapper's interpretation of the music) into digestible chunks--striking an impressive balance between coherence and improvisation.
really astounded at this one. i feel strongly that this kind of iconoclasm is usually not needed; you can abide by all the rules and still create something new and beautiful (or just fun). in fact, it's more impressive to do it that way, most of my favorite maps are pretty standard as far as "groundbreaking" goes, especially by today's standards. but the truth is there's really no such thing as rules, no such thing as conventional or iconoclastic. do what you have to do, to say what you have to say. fuck around and find out
mawkish and hyperindulgent mapping—which is then given focus and emotionally supercharged by some brilliant and very grounded pattern usage. its not easy to map like this; it often requires a lot of careful, effortful listening. you can feel the thought put into every object
thats all fine. it sounds like you played it, and it was hard but in a way you didnt like, or just didnt like the map itself, and gave it ahlf a star. which i have zero problem with. but then being like "well it said tricky but its not tricky" is just kinda annoying, esp to someone like me who is fond of the map
not too interested in getting into specifics of what is or isnt a "design flaw" here. but after a certain point, even a mediocre mappers placements and rhythms are all (or almost all) intentional, let alone a mapper like kiddly. these are choices you can like or dislike, agree or disagree with, but i couldnt call them "flaws." i honestly have not seen a "flaw" in ages, even from maps i really hate, and i think calling it a flaw is simply incorrect. tbh it sounds like you just hated the map and for some reason arent satsified with just saying "idk i just dont like it" and have to come with all this othe rstuff that to me makes no sense
re: your last comment; it was kind of hard to parse so i coulda misinterpeted some stuff idk
by that logic literally no map could ever be "tricky"
i also dont think the map is that hard to even read or understand?? even if the map doesnt immediately click with you, just listen to the song, play it literally 3 times, give it a glance in editor if you have to. it's not tsuki yue
i think circles and sliders should be the main factor in how you judge a map otherwise why are you even looking at a map? there are probably a few exceptions, this is not one of those exceptions
if you dont like the circles and sliders thats fine i literlaly do not care
judging a map based on how cheesable it is is silly imo. you can cheese anything. you can aim the sliderticks on notch hell. you can mash/doubletap streams. you can doubletap jumps. you can ignore sliderbodies on sliders. thats not on the map, thats on you.
plus isn't the fact that you had to "brute force" it at all a sign that the map was indeed to some extent tricky? and isn't the map itself sign enough that "trickiness" was not the SOLE goal, that he also wanted as usual to make a generally good beatmap that represented the song etc etc -- ie circles and sliders?
many things can be learned here. to me all the musical paydirt of mapping lies in the phrase: the rhythmic or melodic line. it's no use agonizing and digging deeper to try to express every detail (most of the time at least). it's much better to zoom out, so to speak, and make a pattern. noting where the music changes, and where it stays the same
i do think the first half is stronger than the second half. there's great stuff in the back half too but at that point it devolves mostly into spinners and long sliders. still i have no qualms calling this a masterpiece. loved this for a long time, it's just so catchy
he logged in, uploaded his first two maps in two days (both great), and never uploaded again. didn't even learn how to place circles in a straight line. he overlapped 2b sliders and probably didn't even realize. i guess zappa enjoyers are just built different. goofy
the latest iteration of the "mapper vs players" drama has me thinking back to 2016, before i had really started mapping and when i was still addicted to the game as a player. the abysmal quality of ranked maps at the time had me fleeing to the graveyard section, where all the interesting tech and reading maps were to be found, and which from then on was where i sank 95% of my playtime into. at the time, "tech" was where all the freedom of expression was. compared to the tsunami of sauceless jump-and-stream maps in the ranked section, graveyard tech maps offered a much richer playing experience and a diversity of music expression, which even back then as a player i had begun to take interest in.
at the time, akali was one of my favorite mappers. the pure volume of fidgety alt maps and "you are not hanzer" streams made him my preferred brand of slop, and whatever the quality of his of mapping, he was never in short supply of interesting ideas.
See It Coming is the one map of his i have since remained a wholehearted fan of, both as a player and as a mapper (it really should be played though.) instead of the sloppy maximalism of his later maps, we see a rather dated (in a charming way) adherence to consistent spacing and blanketing. the spacing and the rotational movement during the kiais are what constitute the map's greatest strength: its smoothness. it glides around with the music so wonderfully you'd think he mapped this with distance snap on—saving distance increases only for the most crucial moments: 02:32:971 (6,7,8) - 02:38:441 (5,6,7,8,9,10) - 02:44:088 (7,8,9,10,11,12) -
also love the use of repeated placements, you can never have too much of those. a very common technique, but they can feel either meaningless or meaningful, depending on the way they're used. the rotational gameplay here makes them extra effective:
02:28:559 (6,1) -
02:31:206 (4,5,6,7,8,9,10,1,2,3) -
02:34:029 (4,1) -
02:42:500 (4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3,4,5) -
the aesthetics in this map, especially some of the blanketing in the earlier sections, are redolent of a still-budding mapper from 2014 (this was uploaded a year after his earliest map), but it's a charming style that manages to win you over.
00:46:912 (1,1) -
01:17:618 (3,1,1) - cool
01:20:088 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4) - nice sequence
and two random details i like a lot
02:26:706 (1,1,2,1,2,1,2) - such a perfect intro to this great section and melody
01:47:618 (1,1,1,1,1) - love the last two sliders
the kinda shit that makes you doubt your eyes. are these sliders even real
lmao
fantastic map that, despite a relatively elaborate slider style, still finds room for the music, most notably through exceptionally satisfying rotational movement
some examples:
00:30:708 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1) - clockwise to counterclockwise
00:37:617 (1,2,3,1,2) - ccw to cw
01:34:344 (4,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5) - cw to ccw
01:37:435 (6,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,3,4,1) - cw to ccw
01:41:071 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1) - cw
01:50:526 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,3,4) - cw to ccw
followed by 01:43:253 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1) - ccw to cw, one of my favorite patterns in the map. reusing the 4stream in the opposite direction.. so good
another amazing one. 00:33:071 (1,2,3,4) - low notes, clockwise, then 00:33:435 (1,2,3,4,5) - high notes, counterclockwise, 00:33:980 (1,2,3) - low notes, clockwise, 00:34:344 (4,1,2,3,4) - high notes, counterclockwise.
preserving and repeating movements, then tailoring them to fit changes in the music to create A Pattern
00:38:890 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5) -
00:42:526 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,1,1,2,3,4,5,1,1,2,3,4,5) - similar swooping motion
01:53:617 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5) - obviously
some other cool stuff
01:06:344 (1,2,3) - lmao
01:09:799 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15) - a classic enepoyo shaped stream
01:24:344 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,1,2,3) - two phrases here. really like the choice to represent the first half of each phrase as a stream over the vocals, then switch to vocal sliders for the second half. really makes the second half vocals hit harder
01:49:071 (1,2,1) - cute
great song, love what the map does with it. really makes you hear every note. it pays a lot of attention to melody, especially differentiating between high and low notes in different ways, which is an extra cool thing when the melody is so relentless
2 types of turning points
02:23:250 (1) -
02:25:096 (9) -
02:26:019 (13) -
02:26:942 (17) -
02:28:788 (25) -
02:29:711 (29) -
02:30:634 (33) -
ty for the kind words, appreciate it
very cool
i play piano also, i didnt discover rubato in a wikipedia article yesterday. i do think you're too attached to the mention of rubato, i was using it to illustrate a similarity between the two: the push and pull of music to produce a certain feeling. it's a fairly new thing in mapping, the mapper himself knows it's experimental. anything truly new is not "generally done" anywhere, there's no point in citing tradition to discredit the new. if it doesnt work for you thats fine, but it's not categorically Wrong because clearly it works for myself and some others, for this song.
if the patterns dont work for you thats also fine, same with any other map. my point is just that the patterning here isnt some new sacrilegious shit, it's no more controversial than anything else thats been uploaded so far
some other points
when he offsets the snapping of an object, its usually to emphasize the melody--the voice, the synth, the strings--and not the percussion. don't singers often sing slightly offbeat to emphasize a certain note or feeling? why should frakturehawkens' hitobjects not be considered their own voice? he doesnt even do it that much, its not like every object is randomly offbeat
rubato is also not "incoherent" with the idea of a rhythm game imo. just tap the key to the sound. it's the same for any track not recorded to a metronome: bohemian rhapsody, recharging the void, whatever. i have also definitely chosen piano recordings to map based on what i can do with the rubato. i honestly think you may just be having the classic kneejerk "wtf something new??? ew" reaction that we've seen in mapping over and over again.
i dont think it actually is that deep at all. the most unfriendly technique here is probably the strange snapping. in music there's this concept of "rubato," which is where when you're playing a piece of music on an instrument you can push and pull the tempo in order to bring out one aspect of the music or another. imo theres something similar going on here: he places an object earlier or later than the sound it corresponds to, to try to produce a certain feeling. obviously it can be a little jarring to hear both the original timing and the "altered" timing together, and that's likely the main thing people find offputting
but other than that it's actually not that weird of a map? pretty much every object has a VERY clear musical purpose, and there are tons of highly structured patterns that clarify the mappers intentions. even when there are no patterns the purpose of an object is so clear it should almost be obvious. it's certainly an unusual map but i dont think it should be a confusing map, at all. even the section at 03:19:788 (1) - which is a little more freeform than the others (with very fun movement and rhythm usage), at least is divided into 2 via NCing to give the section a sense of progression. this is no more incoherent than literally any other map, ever
i do find that in the recent mapping community there is a severe deficiency regarding patterns, both in recognizing them and in using them. which means theres a deficiency regarding that aspect of music which patterns can best express (and which is imo the most important aspect in mapping, partially because it relates to many other aspects as well.) ironically, it's a type of musical understanding which the game of osu! itself specifically teaches you to unlearn, because when you play the game you usually focus on one or two objects at a time. which is why, as time has gone on, maps and mapping attitudes have become less and less pattern- (and less music-) based. it's something i also sort of unlearned for a bit, and had to eventually relearn
but that also doesnt HAVE to be whats happening here. maybe you just dont like this map or song in particular. i definitely dont love every pattern-based map i see. you can decide for yourself which one it is
02:13:577 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2) - so in love with this. the four note ellipses afterwards seals the deal
02:32:039 (1,2,3,1,1,1,2,3,1,1) - four sliders counterclockwise, four sliders clockwise
02:53:138 (1,2,3) - takes a movement that lasts two white tacks, and expands it to three: 02:53:797 (4,5,6,7,1) - ... i think about this often
03:54:456 (1,1,1) - classic
im obsessed with the song. one of my favorite lks maps. also check out reiji-RJ's map which inspired this
poging
genius level map. frakturehawkens shatters the song into pieces and recreates it in his own image--but deftly, with intentionality. the off-kilter snapping in particular helps paint a highly impressionistic vision of the music.. and a sharper image then emerges from the murk by way of broad-strokes ideas (03:38:926 (31,32,33,34,35,36,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1) - , 02:43:236 (1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1) - ) and numerous very clearheaded pattern construction. the heavy reliance on seemingly haphazardly-timed patterns brings to mind rrtyui's rainshower; despite the nonstandard techniques used here, pattern-usage helps to break the music (or the mapper's interpretation of the music) into digestible chunks--striking an impressive balance between coherence and improvisation.
some favorite moments:
00:22:201 (8,9,10,11,12,1,2,3,4,5,6,7) - exaggerated ds streams exploding out of the sparkling synths, way too pretty. see also 02:34:788 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,1,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1) - where the streams lead into the vocal stack (mysteriously divided into 2 sets of 7, apparently to nothing but the symmetry works on its own, and then ofc into the slow slider as the vocal changes)
00:39:644 (1,1,1) - again, mysteriously divided into two, again, it works
00:46:253 (5,6,7,1,2,3) - random beautiful structures
00:48:839 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2) -
01:22:115 (3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6) - random beautiful structure into a stack that starts late
01:27:719 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,1) - vocal stack that slices right through the beat drop
01:36:943 (5,6,1,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,1,2) -
01:43:322 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6) - a lot of patterns used in this map are created just by repeating a couple objects. simple but works wonders
01:51:598 (2,3,1,2) - love this one, and this 01:54:098 (2,3,4,1,2,3) - and this 01:56:426 (5,1) - and this 02:00:564 (5,6,7,8,9,10,1,2,3,4,5,6) -
03:12:891 (1,2,3,4,1,1,2,3,4,1) - the circle tightens
03:34:242 (13,14,15,16) - sliderend moment
03:41:167 (1,1,1,1) - gorgeous way to end things
really astounded at this one. i feel strongly that this kind of iconoclasm is usually not needed; you can abide by all the rules and still create something new and beautiful (or just fun). in fact, it's more impressive to do it that way, most of my favorite maps are pretty standard as far as "groundbreaking" goes, especially by today's standards. but the truth is there's really no such thing as rules, no such thing as conventional or iconoclastic. do what you have to do, to say what you have to say. fuck around and find out
mawkish and hyperindulgent mapping—which is then given focus and emotionally supercharged by some brilliant and very grounded pattern usage. its not easy to map like this; it often requires a lot of careful, effortful listening. you can feel the thought put into every object
i woke up and idc anymore but i am writing to let you know i have read your comment
btw i am going to sleep now
like you hated it so much and arent satisfied with it being a subjective hatred, it has to be objectively bad somehow
thats all fine. it sounds like you played it, and it was hard but in a way you didnt like, or just didnt like the map itself, and gave it ahlf a star. which i have zero problem with. but then being like "well it said tricky but its not tricky" is just kinda annoying, esp to someone like me who is fond of the map
not too interested in getting into specifics of what is or isnt a "design flaw" here. but after a certain point, even a mediocre mappers placements and rhythms are all (or almost all) intentional, let alone a mapper like kiddly. these are choices you can like or dislike, agree or disagree with, but i couldnt call them "flaws." i honestly have not seen a "flaw" in ages, even from maps i really hate, and i think calling it a flaw is simply incorrect. tbh it sounds like you just hated the map and for some reason arent satsified with just saying "idk i just dont like it" and have to come with all this othe rstuff that to me makes no sense
re: your last comment; it was kind of hard to parse so i coulda misinterpeted some stuff idk
by that logic literally no map could ever be "tricky"
i also dont think the map is that hard to even read or understand?? even if the map doesnt immediately click with you, just listen to the song, play it literally 3 times, give it a glance in editor if you have to. it's not tsuki yue
not you specifically but yes partially
i think circles and sliders should be the main factor in how you judge a map otherwise why are you even looking at a map? there are probably a few exceptions, this is not one of those exceptions
if you dont like the circles and sliders thats fine i literlaly do not care
judging a map based on how cheesable it is is silly imo. you can cheese anything. you can aim the sliderticks on notch hell. you can mash/doubletap streams. you can doubletap jumps. you can ignore sliderbodies on sliders. thats not on the map, thats on you.
plus isn't the fact that you had to "brute force" it at all a sign that the map was indeed to some extent tricky? and isn't the map itself sign enough that "trickiness" was not the SOLE goal, that he also wanted as usual to make a generally good beatmap that represented the song etc etc -- ie circles and sliders?
09:10:752 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) -
4 measures
first measure: 2 squares, then 4 sliders (last slider replaced by double)
second measure: 2 squares, then 4 sliders (last slider replaced by double)
third and fourth measures: 4 squares, 8 sliders (last slider replaced by double)
be sure to check out the expert diff, its slightly better imo. he made it after topdiff
me watching this map in editor: this is awful maps are meant to be played
me playing this map: pretty good
many things can be learned here. to me all the musical paydirt of mapping lies in the phrase: the rhythmic or melodic line. it's no use agonizing and digging deeper to try to express every detail (most of the time at least). it's much better to zoom out, so to speak, and make a pattern. noting where the music changes, and where it stays the same
i do think the first half is stronger than the second half. there's great stuff in the back half too but at that point it devolves mostly into spinners and long sliders. still i have no qualms calling this a masterpiece. loved this for a long time, it's just so catchy
00:57:607 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20) - sometimes all you gotta do is stack your shit. prob my favorite pattern
01:23:207 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4) - another great one
01:16:807 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,1,1,1) -
it was five years ago i dont remember exactly
i think i was looking up frank zappa maps
he logged in, uploaded his first two maps in two days (both great), and never uploaded again. didn't even learn how to place circles in a straight line. he overlapped 2b sliders and probably didn't even realize. i guess zappa enjoyers are just built different. goofy