russian-style

thanks everyone for the discussion - i'll close this proposal since the outcome is pretty clear. if we want to revive the idea of this descriptor, then it seems like we either need to consider splitting into some descriptors that are missing, or we need to figure out a better name for it. 3 month cooldown for failed descriptor attempts seems like a good idea

"Yea id rather just use "simple" for LC style maps then" <-- it really is that simple

its 2023 . supposing any mapper that takes inspiration from those maps and proclaims theirs (or any) as russian style is inherently wrong bc theres always going to be some amount of personal bias onthe choices in the map (regardless if its known or unbeknownst to the mapper themselves). furthermroe like a lot of ppl have mentioned it feels disingenuous to coin russian style maps in cases where the mapper themselves isnt even russian either making the term itself kinda vague anyways. better idea i feel is to use more straightforward descriptors like ppl have already stated . it is that shrimple

Can we have a clear definition? Like
1: Actually caring about hitsounds
2: Sliders that are barely curved or not at all
3: ?

fllecc has russian style he took russian inspo, thats how i learned the term itself

Do you guys honestly believe modern "Russian style" maps are distinguishable to as Russian style regardless of the mapper's country of origin? Can you tell me some mappers not from Russia that's clearly Russian style (besides Natteke)? Are you simply finding patterns of similarity because the mappers themselves are from Russia and have La Cataline influence? Can the definition of Russian style at least be more clear?

I believe that it'd be fine to use it since it was used as the term ''russian-style'' already for years and is still referred as that

does anyone remember metonyms from English class by any chance?

I do get not wanting to stereotype every Russian mapper by this style, but I think it being called Russian style is completely justifiable if we aren't basing the name off of certain mappers, because most of us would know based on context that Russian style doesn't mean "everyone who maps this style is Russian", "Russian style" is a metonym used to refer to mappers like attendant, because well, a big thing uniting many of these mappers is the fact that they're, well, Russian.

but then again, region based mapping is very.. ambigious? China and Russia are the only "regions" in particular to have their own sort of mapping "style", and other mostly homogenous "regions" don't have a set style (I don't really see people listing Petal and seros as "Hong Kong style", or Luscent and Acylica as "Korean style)

personally I agree yes but like?? there has to be a somewhat better name than Russian style tho I don't mind it

im gonna vote yes then propose that avalon is slavic mapping

i always thought of descriptors as analogous to genres and this is indeed a "genre" of map which brings together multiple specific elements but i dont know what htey are

i find the style incredibly distinct and recognizable so i think it should be valid.

i agree with @funny 's point

@sema no cuz russian style is basically anti-emphasis, simple visuals and unique rhythm-hitsounds structure so hitsounds on these maps actually matter.

idk if it should be some descriptor but for searchability sake i'd say that's a good thing

🇷🇺🗺🤯

No we can't I'm sorry

agree with 228 since when a russian maps something its basically russian style (true and factual

lets just put this on any map where the mapper has russian flag and it will be 100% accurate

No you aren't

Also i was not joking about putting this on every frey map because I'm right

no because the guy is venezuelan (exact problem i have with using descriptors of mapping style as a whole instead of pinpointing specific elements of said styles)
it's really easy to apply this descriptor as a whole to the progenitors of the style but beyond looking at that one specific generation in retrospect it gets harder to draw the line between clear (la cataline reiji rj tieff etc) russian influence and simple commonalities in design elements between maps

when people say "russian style" in the first place most mappers nowadays would instantly associate that > lc natteke etc era mapping but also more recent movements like what elvis has been doing since 2018ish ... should stuff like jounzan maps be put under the same bubble as the rest of them just due to similarities in map design ? even though other elements of their maps and the people that have adopted the same things' maps are much dissimilar from the immediate association that people come to after thinking about what a "russian" map is?

No you cant sorry

Is Xanandra russian-style? Can I tag any simple yet quirky map?

agreee with nanoya

this map is goated indicator

Thanks team

As long as I really enjoy the old Russian mapping style (mainly La Cataline, IceBeam, rue, Reiji-RJ, Vass_Bass, tieff, riffy, ZLOdeuka- etc) I have no idea how that description is supposed to be doing any justice to either mappers from that era, or the style itself. LOL.

i love russian style and i think this should be a descriptor!

"so, why not just be clear and tag the individual aspects of the style?" <------ this

> i think we should add a lot of descriptors but remove their descriptions to leave them up for interpretation because if youve been part of this community for any length of time at all youll notice how its literally impossible for more than ~30% of the population to agree on what a term means

the horror of categorization strikes again. kiiiinda agree though

not to totally discount the idea of course, i think there's potentially a place for a distinction between vague styles and more precise map elements

> this is kind of an out there idea but how about creating a new category for less defined things like "styles"?

this is essentially equivalent to rym's genre/descriptor split, but i find it hard to tell what exactly would go in something like this. like, unlike other art forms osu maps don't tend to have (names for) clear "movements" or "styles"

like what happens if i think a map is russian but not for the reasons stated in the description. or clean. or freeform

i think we should add a lot of descriptors but remove their descriptions to leave them up for interpretation because if youve been part of this community for any length of time at all youll notice how its literally impossible for more than ~30% of the population to agree on what a term means

why not

this is kind of an out there idea but how about creating a new category for less defined things like "styles"?

as far as I'm aware the usage of every descriptors so far is pretty much self-contained but this one would break that mold since calling something a style takes other maps into account.

agree with rho

I'll admit i have no good answer to that, was going to suggest tagging those descriptors in addition to russian style, but that would make the russian tyle tag redundant. But im just gonna say, there are a lot of maps that have many of the individual aspects that form a "russian-style" map but i wouldnt actually consider "russian-style".

It's really hard to explain, but for me it's a combination of gameplay and visual aspects that makes the style what it is, and it isn't really something that can be indicated with individual tags. I believe that there are many people who seek out this particular combination and having this descriptor can make it easier for them to discover such maps.

agree with fsjallink

> As long as the maps have some qualities that make them identifiable as "russian", i think it's fine to put them all under the same descriptor

isn't this the problem though? "russian-style" isn't clear; in fact, it's intentionally a wide and vague blanket for a variety of techniques. so, why not just be clear and tag the individual aspects of the style? (aim control and improvisation tags come to mind as ways we already do this)

I think you guys are overthinking this, the descriptor system (as it is rn) isn't meant to be so comprehensive as to account for every possible nuance and evolution the style has gone through. As long as the maps have some qualities that make them identifiable as "russian", i think it's fine to put them all under the same descriptor. If you really want to split hairs, i guess there could be different sub-categories for each era/derivative of the russian style.

As for how far a map can deviate from the standard "russian-style" map and still be accepted as one, that's what the descriptor voting page is for.

descriptors (in my eyes) mainly are for map discovery and filtering. at some point they'll also play a part in the recommendation system

@rHO thanks ill take this into account going 4ward

i guess my final thoughts are this: what is the descriptors system trying to accomplish? i think trying to represent "genres" or "movements" is going to be especially difficult when it comes to descriptions for maps because genres in things like music are mostly a marketing and journalistic invention (see: grunge / "seattle sound" / etc)

to be clear, i mean stuff like "antiflow" (which if we're trying to be clear, i feel is represented with something like "reverse contrast" pretty well) having coherent meanings and potentially being taggable even if absent context they kinda are silly terms

agreed with others that there are facets that make this style up that could be tagged separately for the sake of clarity. i think omdb should try to be descriptive in its approach to terminology but not so when it's a collection of tendencies—i think just those tendencies should be documented if they are important enough

bc the feature is new, i wanna say that the problem w descriptor votings like this is that there is some lack of "breadcrumbs" of why the descriptors/tags (has to) exist. while some others come as obvious and need no discussion (example: "aim", "progression", "repetition", etc), descriptors (votings) like these just feels weak and end up ambiguous for a lot of people (this is also my personal problem with tags like "chaotic" vs "messy")

for comparison, i'm gonna use a proposal on rym for the genre "shitgaze": https://rateyourmusic.com/admin/queue/hq/profile_details?id=56497&type=h&context=p -- peep the meta-comments section: there's compilations of proof that 'shitgaze' has been an existing genre (no matter how /ridiculous/ it sounds)

i haven't done my homework so i can't really come up with suggestions of solutions because i'm inclined to believe that a lot of the history that goes behind the usage of these terms lay behind closed doors mostly (except for like, one pishi youtube video i guess?)

also combining one style and the other to one descriptor tag that are separately known for their own styles are reductive imo.. feels like opening a can of worms

primitivism

lets invent anti-mapping

if theres something called anti emphasis these maps would not be the example lol

there is no such thing as anti emphasis

sth like "anti-emphasis" would be better imo cuz that's one of the most prominent aspect of the russian style that wasn't already covered by an existing tag

I read this apollo take and I changed my vote to yes

becoming a descriptor accelerationist; I think u should definitely put attendant and LC under the same descriptor, this would be a good thing for the site

Yea id rather just use "simple" for LC style maps then

Yeah there s nothing wrong with grouping this up, i'm just really against the name (as a russian myself and having nothing to do with the "russian" style, ironic). I believe there even was a pishifat video where elvis & natteke (?) talked about "russian style", and they didn't like that it was called this way aswell. Imo you can just ask those 5 people who are responsible for it how it should be named and thats it

i can agree with the name of the descriptor being extremely awkward, but i'm not sure whether i want OMDB to take a prescriptivist approach (i.e. "we will call this thing something new"). following what mappers & players use colloquially seems a lot more preferable - but i'm open to hearing what people would expect more from the site

personally i think grouping the older LC/rue/natteke and the elvis and attendant type beats under this super general descriptor would be OK: other descriptors can fill in the gap and more accurately pinpoint what's going on. i understand though that this will probably be a point of contention for people on it's own

This can be a thing if this isn't called "russian style". Just come up with some arbitrary thing like UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH 'average of all numbers in YYY colors code'-style and it will be fine and fitting

honestly needs more elaboration on the name bc i think of two (at least) different styles when someone says "russian style". there's the 'old LC/Rue/Natteke style' and there's newer modern russian stuff like newer elvis/semaphore asura/attendant etc etc

Yea i think thats the problem with descriptors that try to pinpoint a style (instead of stylistic features). The boundaries are unclear, and some have modern variants that have small common denominators with the original style so Shit gets crazy when u can call 2 rly different maps both Russian Style

Are there modern examples? I see the similarities, but they all seem to stem from La Cataline / Natteke influence of the era, and they themselves are probably have some influence from mappers like Happy30, Al-Azif, and Alace. It just seems so specific to both the era and community that I can't see it being associated with maps not by them. Not completely against the tag, I just have a hard time imagining it being used accurately outside of its original influencers that define it.

Also, I myself was confused about whether the tag was more associated with the mapping styles of La Cataline/Natteke or the style of Aleks719 by the description.

/s/47923
/s/44743
/s/104260
/s/669536 / /s/669536
/s/43466
/s/91090
/s/38235

som maps

can you list some examples of the style?

if ur voting hold then leaving a comment would be ideal (will make this more clear)

@nixxskate, the naming is a little confusing but in theory it could apply to non russian mappers

is this a style unique to Russia, or a style unique to La Cataline?

lets see how this goes. "hold" should be used if you'd vote yes if there was some changes made to the proposal. i'll be adjusting stuff in response to feedback so ya