Feint, Leah Rye - Starseed by Frakturehawkens

its funny

avant-garde

discussion is chill but you either instantly love or hate this, i think it'd be impossible changing anyone's opinion on something like this even if it was all rooted in perfect reasoning

god level map

discussions on the discussion website?? nooo...

mixed feeling abt the map itself but its cool that maps exist that warrant these kinds of discussions in the first place

"useless discussions"🤓🤓

useless discussions this sucks ass

homie14

👍🏽

this map is 👎🏿

there that’s better?

died in 2023 - born in 2023

welcome back homie14

our sun is the at the root of our solar system call that a Starseed[3]

reading Luminiscental mention the od being 0 is making me lean more towards it being meant to be played though...

anyways I think alot of the differences of opinion on this map are people viewing it as a map to be played vs people viewing it as a visualization. Personally i view it as a the latter, but it's not very obvious which is the intention.

specifically choosing the white skin version of an emoji is crazy

Nvm this is 👎🏻

tbh i don't rly care if it doesn't fit in a rhythm game osu rubato is awesome

also lol being an osu player selects for being a piano player point and laugh

agree with scub

imo the asymmetry between generating free rhythm (playing music) and following / matching rhythm (playing a rhythm game) fundamentally changes the experiential character of rubato-like rhythms; one side feels free, having breathing space, the other neurotic, tensely anticipating each note. de-emphasizing accuracy judgement (e.g. OD 0 here) reduces the disconnect, but to limited effect, and sacrificing a big part of the rhythm game experience

someone clever could probably use this contrast in an intentional manner (horror music or something) but I've never seen it done

aside from that general flaw, imo a bigger issue with this particular map is things like 00:44:012 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7); rhythm is all well and good but when the intentions behind placement are so clearly out-of-touch with the way people actually play this game it becomes almost a moot point

there's multiple people saying this is the wrong song to make this map with, but in my eyes this is very much the right song. the stable rhythm makes the rubato improvisation easy to notice, and the strong melodies on top of the rhythm gives frakturehawkens something easy to base his improvisation on.

frakturehawkens is Glenn Gould and i'm here for it

i really like the rhythmic structure in this map it reminds me of skating

neeler

chiming in late to the discussion but rubato definitely exists in percussion music lmao

that being saiddd my issue with maps and slapping in rubato as a concept is like the rhythm game equivalent of making sheet music as accurate as possible to "maximize the intended effect of the music being played or whatever" in music that's played in free time or in unquantized rhythms

rubato is fundamentally a result of music performers stretching out time or playing faster as a form of expression **in that moment where they are playing**. try to enforce that fragile expression in portraying tempo changes/delayed notes in a prescriptive lossy format like sheet music and u lose out on literally every nuance behind the performance

like imagine trying to really play a detailmaxxed sheet music where ur required to follow every bit of slowdown/speedup/stylistic rhythmic changes in its entirety. not only would u be overwhelmed by all the details in the score, but u would also lose the expressive nuances that the original performance intended. i think the same applies to this map.

theres a good ass adam neely video about it too i think but yeah i just think adding "rubato-like" rhythms in ur map to the point it becomes its own creative interpretation of the song and expecting us to process it as an extension of it (which probably isnt necessarily true) is fundamentally contradictory

a tragedy

#melloe-class being deleted is still a war crime real ones know

ty for the kind words, appreciate it

the way melloe interprets maps and puts their thoughts into words in such a colorful yet precise way always fills me with a certain kind of elation lol i know over the years i've tried to really piece together my thoughts on mapping in terms of why i enjoy particular aspects of it so much and why certain ones stand out to such a degree with all their intricate moving parts, but it's not easy to pinpoint said reasons and convey that to others. using ombd, exploring all these different facets of mapping thru maps that would've been buried in the graveyard forever had someone on here not rated it, or maps i've known about for years being shone in a new light thru little comments of golden nugget wisdom like melloe's has for sure been a huge inspiration as of late

also thank u melloe 4 existing ur mention about patterning has made me think a lot about my own maping and i rly appreciate taht

read the recent discussion w this and i agree that this is just ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ . the wrong song for this and i think the offscreen is way too just-novelty for me i think ;; but i admire the dedication i think

Penis mapping

This map got more ratings on omdb than actual plays 😭😭😭😭😭

This Is The Future That Liberals Want

re: uberzolik i think offscreen stuff is an underutilized asset in mapping (obviously because of its unrankability) so i just appreciate it being used overall but the usage in this mapping falls into what my comment entails imo

grand award 2083

I only posted that to be a hater also 02:35:650 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1) - This is cool I like stream for held sound

Offscreen placement is so uninteresting tbh

very cool

u also play piano that's so cool..

on a more serious note this discussion gave me a somewhat new perspective as to how i look at this type of avant-garde maps (e.g. 4n3c memai, which i did lowkey fuck with) it's cool to see there is a notion that can be drawn as a parallel, albeit not a direct one

i play piano also, i didnt discover rubato in a wikipedia article yesterday. i do think you're too attached to the mention of rubato, i was using it to illustrate a similarity between the two: the push and pull of music to produce a certain feeling. it's a fairly new thing in mapping, the mapper himself knows it's experimental. anything truly new is not "generally done" anywhere, there's no point in citing tradition to discredit the new. if it doesnt work for you thats fine, but it's not categorically Wrong because clearly it works for myself and some others, for this song.

if the patterns dont work for you thats also fine, same with any other map. my point is just that the patterning here isnt some new sacrilegious shit, it's no more controversial than anything else thats been uploaded so far

some other points
when he offsets the snapping of an object, its usually to emphasize the melody--the voice, the synth, the strings--and not the percussion. don't singers often sing slightly offbeat to emphasize a certain note or feeling? why should frakturehawkens' hitobjects not be considered their own voice? he doesnt even do it that much, its not like every object is randomly offbeat

rubato is also not "incoherent" with the idea of a rhythm game imo. just tap the key to the sound. it's the same for any track not recorded to a metronome: bohemian rhapsody, recharging the void, whatever. i have also definitely chosen piano recordings to map based on what i can do with the rubato. i honestly think you may just be having the classic kneejerk "wtf something new??? ew" reaction that we've seen in mapping over and over again.

rubato in dnb is crazy

u play piano that's so cool..

@melloe:

genuinely appreciate the reply btw, I think it's quite useful

as a classically trained pianist (lmao, not trying to be credentialist but just contextualizing) I think applying rubato is not only incoherent with the idea of a rhythm game but also generally never done with percussion even in performance - to do this on a DNB map (which is an electronic, quantized genre overwhelmingly about the percussion and wouldn't fundamentally work w/ rubato even in the song) definitely doesn't work for me

as for patterning, I can definitely agree that there's a sense of coherence and intentionality to every object placed, but for me i'm left feeling like there wasn't really any payoff, like there is just a silly idea that sits there in blank space, never given the catharsis that it deserves I guess

this map is in a superposition of "how does this make any sense" and "this is brilliant" for me

our sun is the at the root of our solar system call that a Starseed[2]

our sun is the at the root of our solar system call that a Starseed[1]

our sun is the at the root of our solar system call that a Starseed

i dont think it actually is that deep at all. the most unfriendly technique here is probably the strange snapping. in music there's this concept of "rubato," which is where when you're playing a piece of music on an instrument you can push and pull the tempo in order to bring out one aspect of the music or another. imo theres something similar going on here: he places an object earlier or later than the sound it corresponds to, to try to produce a certain feeling. obviously it can be a little jarring to hear both the original timing and the "altered" timing together, and that's likely the main thing people find offputting

but other than that it's actually not that weird of a map? pretty much every object has a VERY clear musical purpose, and there are tons of highly structured patterns that clarify the mappers intentions. even when there are no patterns the purpose of an object is so clear it should almost be obvious. it's certainly an unusual map but i dont think it should be a confusing map, at all. even the section at 03:19:788 (1) - which is a little more freeform than the others (with very fun movement and rhythm usage), at least is divided into 2 via NCing to give the section a sense of progression. this is no more incoherent than literally any other map, ever

i do find that in the recent mapping community there is a severe deficiency regarding patterns, both in recognizing them and in using them. which means theres a deficiency regarding that aspect of music which patterns can best express (and which is imo the most important aspect in mapping, partially because it relates to many other aspects as well.) ironically, it's a type of musical understanding which the game of osu! itself specifically teaches you to unlearn, because when you play the game you usually focus on one or two objects at a time. which is why, as time has gone on, maps and mapping attitudes have become less and less pattern- (and less music-) based. it's something i also sort of unlearned for a bit, and had to eventually relearn

but that also doesnt HAVE to be whats happening here. maybe you just dont like this map or song in particular. i definitely dont love every pattern-based map i see. you can decide for yourself which one it is

Nerd website simply

i hate this mpa because its the wrong song

some cool ideas here and there e.g. the offscreen stuff but i feel like it doesn't matter when you lose all sense of playability and even as a visualization i feel like it's far too inconsistent and experimental to leave any lasting impact other than its novelty factor

as peter griffin once said: it insists upon itself; it's shallow and pedantic.

I like cool maps

I like this map bevause it is cool and interesting and intriguing reimagining of conventions

Generally speaking the idea behind these maps is that they are creating some rules within, which can often purposefully disregard some aspects and contradict with what's considered "player-friendly" or "normal", and then use different, often unorthodox expression techniques to make things look cool (this is what gives that impression of competence). Evaluation is expected to be done upon how well the map follows and builds around said rules, with much debate surrounding how clear they should be to the average viewer.

unlucky, I think im just too much of a midwit to get this map

feel the same way about some of kuyusu or heilia's sketches among others as well, where the mapper is undeniably incredibly competent but I'm just unable to derive any enjoyment (or understanding, really) out of the map

its not that deep

i wonder if - no, hope that - eventually I'll see something that makes me understand what maps like these are trying to accomplish

loving the take that this set is a psyop by big mapping

the right side of my brain just lit up like a christmas tree

i'd say that maps I've been seen for years are much more a gaslighting type than mine.
Especially when you compare the thought process of these.

heh

both!

Is that true or did you just want to comment really bad

I wish I felt that threatened by a graveyarded map

the song sucks and it plays like shit end of story

ig i like being gaslit cuz i love this map

personally i dont see it

I really respect pushing innovations, it just so happens that I'm really not into the end product in this instance

its completely impossible to talk about the movement of this map because its completely out of my skill range lmfao

god i REALLY dont know how to feel about this there is rhythm and patterning choices that im just like Wow to but then things that kinda are just like "r u trolling" or r pure edginess rather than being of substance

in an alternate universe this is the equivalent of lethal weapon chan

yeah i think im getting filtered here its interesting as shit but past thgat i dont get it

this maps beyond my comprehension

the least 3.5 map of all time apparently

this map is the complete opposite of my values 👍
kind of impressive ngl

some of the ideas are cool i just cant get behind it in this instance as a whole

so if they were regular maps

idk id like these maps more if they werent trying to be annoying i think

big mapping is so funny

i love big mapping and quila

what the fuck are you writing

what's big mapping and quila's ratings are beyond what this map has i'm so confused

big mapping loves this but hates quila what have we come to

worst possible song to do this on

too sillypilled

um is this ironic or not

yeah im also on team frostwich

im on team frostwich

team visionary or team vastly. decide.

@Sanch-KK is your post a pun or is my pattern recognition going into overdrive at the moment

the transition into the doubles breakdown at 02:43:236 (1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1) - also left a notably positive impression among others

lots of individual moments that me think 'yeah thats pretty sick' in between phrases of 'what exactly am I looking at'.

02:34:788 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,1,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1) - in particular won me over in the end but there are certainly individual moments that are turnoffs as well. Could easily seen my opinion on this drastically shifting in one direction or the other as time passes.

fun for both ends 🤗

what if im just really retarded

you either are a visionary and understand this map or you vastly lack the open-mindness required to see it's greatness

really interesting map though, at least

slayyy

no, i guess someone could say "this looks like somebody's first map bruh 😂" or could argue this is as bad as somebody's first map but at least for me this is clearly a work of someone who's used the editor quite a bit

that said i'm not sure how i feel about this map, i've always been fond of ~new waves~ of mapping of any era but i feel sooner or later i'll start.. not getting it. that's kinda sad to think about. i'm becoming an osu boomer :(

do you guys think a new mapper could somehow stumble into mapping something like this

genius level map. frakturehawkens shatters the song into pieces and recreates it in his own image--but deftly, with intentionality. the off-kilter snapping in particular helps paint a highly impressionistic vision of the music.. and a sharper image then emerges from the murk by way of broad-strokes ideas (03:38:926 (31,32,33,34,35,36,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1) - , 02:43:236 (1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1) - ) and numerous very clearheaded pattern construction. the heavy reliance on seemingly haphazardly-timed patterns brings to mind rrtyui's rainshower; despite the nonstandard techniques used here, pattern-usage helps to break the music (or the mapper's interpretation of the music) into digestible chunks--striking an impressive balance between coherence and improvisation.

some favorite moments:

00:22:201 (8,9,10,11,12,1,2,3,4,5,6,7) - exaggerated ds streams exploding out of the sparkling synths, way too pretty. see also 02:34:788 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,1,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1) - where the streams lead into the vocal stack (mysteriously divided into 2 sets of 7, apparently to nothing but the symmetry works on its own, and then ofc into the slow slider as the vocal changes)

00:39:644 (1,1,1) - again, mysteriously divided into two, again, it works

00:46:253 (5,6,7,1,2,3) - random beautiful structures

00:48:839 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2) -

01:22:115 (3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6) - random beautiful structure into a stack that starts late

01:27:719 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,1) - vocal stack that slices right through the beat drop

01:36:943 (5,6,1,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,1,2) -

01:43:322 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6) - a lot of patterns used in this map are created just by repeating a couple objects. simple but works wonders

01:51:598 (2,3,1,2) - love this one, and this 01:54:098 (2,3,4,1,2,3) - and this 01:56:426 (5,1) - and this 02:00:564 (5,6,7,8,9,10,1,2,3,4,5,6) -

03:12:891 (1,2,3,4,1,1,2,3,4,1) - the circle tightens

03:34:242 (13,14,15,16) - sliderend moment

03:41:167 (1,1,1,1) - gorgeous way to end things

really astounded at this one. i feel strongly that this kind of iconoclasm is usually not needed; you can abide by all the rules and still create something new and beautiful (or just fun). in fact, it's more impressive to do it that way, most of my favorite maps are pretty standard as far as "groundbreaking" goes, especially by today's standards. but the truth is there's really no such thing as rules, no such thing as conventional or iconoclastic. do what you have to do, to say what you have to say. fuck around and find out